I’m a clinically depressed, unmedicated, uninsured, quite poor person who isn’t really enjoying life all that much, and who can’t stand babies.
Sex is not only one of the few forms of entertainment I can afford, it’s also one of those things that make my life enjoyable, fun, and worth living. And this of course means that I’m risking getting pregnant, and at this stage that would mean abortion (uninsured and poor, remember?). And for someone to tell me that this means I value “instant gratification” over life is to tell me that my own life isn’t worth shit. Because if I were only allowed to have sex under the condition that I didn’t abort, realistically would mean either
1)staying celibate, losing the remaining joy in life, losing the battle with depression, suicide
2)continuing to have sex, possibly getting pregnant, losing the battle with depression, suicide
so, a kindly “fuck you” to all the privileged kids out there who think poor, mentally ill people deserve punishment for finding some joy in life. [/rant]
Right on. I feel much the same way. You made some awesome comments about this and I salute you.
I can’t sleep, so I was thinking about your point that sex is an inexpensive form of entertainment, and than I was reading your post about money and consumerism making people unhappy. It’s an interesting juxtaposition. My money worries are overwhelming to me even though my credit card debt isn’t that bad (it’ll take me about a year to pay it off if I can get even a minimum wage part-time job). The effect of severe anxiety for me is a radically decreased sex drive, so I’m in this situation where the best entertainment I can afford (sex!) isn’t something I can do very much of. It’s really frustrating, which just feeds the anxiety, which I can’t get treated because I’m too poor for a doctor. :(
ugh, yeah, that’s a vicious cycle alright. :-(
the juxtaposition of entertainment for the poor vs consumerism isn’t originally mine either; on Pandagon there was a post about drugs that pointed this out: some of the most persecuted past-times in our society are those that make live enjoyable, are cheap(ish), and don’t enhance productivity/don’t contribute much to the economy: having casual sex, smoking pot, “loitering”, etc.
don’t enhance productivity/don’t contribute much to the economy: having casual sex, smoking pot, “loitering”, etc.
Ugh! That’s too true. There’s this cultural idea that poor people shouldn’t enjoy life at all. They should be miserable so they’ll pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Jeez, but I really hate the individualist, consumerist, capitalist paradigm I live in.
Jadehawk, I completely agree. I was going to chime in on the frustration since I found everyone abandoned the Sunday thread for the endless one. But I missed it and no one wants to rehash it.I was posting as justalurker btw movable type isn’t an option for posting here. I know how much it sucks to be depressed and suicidal. I’ve tried several times to kill myself before I got pregnant. Ironically, I got my life together for my child but I was still depressed and she was the only happiness for me (though she did bring my a lot of grief too lol), now I’m on meds and honestly the only reason why I have insurance is because of my child. Guess I got lucky, but I would never force you to have a child because of my positive outcome. Though there is still a lot of pressure, stress, etc because of my 3 year old its not all roses =)
I’m wracking my head about whether I should mention the third possibility I can think of… so I probably shouldn’t.
It goes without saying that I agree with the points both of you have made. A bit more of a welfare state would go a long way.
All three of you, that is, now. (WTF? Why did it take 10 minutes for Rachel’s comment to get displayed?)
I’ll try to read the Sunday thread today.
LOL David, no worries I didn’t take offense my posts got well skipped over on the Sunday thread too even when my posts was quoted. However, I thought logically figured it was just because it was it was a long thread, my posts were too long, people went to bed/work/school/other or a million other possibilities. ;)
I think sometimes class privilege manifests as a sort of ubermenchen idea, like when Nietzsche says the lower class just don’t feel as much as people like him. People look at all the “sob stories” and think, well, they obviously aren’t people like me because I wouldn’t have survived that. So they *can’t* feel like me. And then they think, well, so many disasters, what’s one more? Who cares if I make just one more shitty thing happen in your life? It will hardly be noticeable on top of all the others!
MY life is the one you don’t know anything about, it would *actually* be hard and noticeable to me.
It’s shitty, but that’s the attitude I’m getting from the comments over there. I hate that thread. I hope I’m wrong, please someone tell me my interpretation is untenable.
“I’m wracking my head about whether I should mention the third possibility I can think of…“
if this possibility involves moving back home, that won’t work. Just try to imagine how much I’d have to give up (school, work, boyfriend); I don’t think I could mentally deal with such a sudden and thorough shock.
“I got my life together for my child but I was still depressed and she was the only happiness for me (though she did bring my a lot of grief too lol), now I’m on meds and honestly the only reason why I have insurance is because of my child. “
yeah, I’m almost thinking that if I got through pregnancy, I could make it work. But 9-months of total hormonal clusterfuck, no healthcare, and a lot of fear and self-hatred, and having my entire life rearranged… yeah, those would be the most dangerous 9 months of my entire life; I’ve gone suicidal for less than that.
“It’s shitty, but that’s the attitude I’m getting from the comments over there. I hate that thread. I hope I’m wrong, please someone tell me my interpretation is untenable.”
I hope that it’s all simply because she’s young. Walton has said some incredibly stupid and hateful shit about abortion too, just a year ago, and he’s progressed all the way to “rational and understanding” on that issue.
Jadehawk, do you know if Lambs of Christ are still the powerhouse pro-life group in NoDak?
I had to escort my girlfriend past those fuckers to get to the Fargo clinic for our* abortion back in the mid 90′s. I swear, if I hadn’t been so focused on gf’s emotional well-being at the time, there would have been blood on them and handcuffs on me.
*Even though I’m not the one who had to go through the actual procedure, it was a very traumatic and heart-wrenching experience for both of us. We were in a very loving and committed relationship at the time but we both knew we were in no position to bring a child into the mix, for a variety of reasons. It still makes me cry sometimes when I think about it. Like now.
Walton has said some incredibly stupid and hateful shit about abortion too, just a year ago, and he’s progressed all the way to “rational and understanding” on that issue.
I hope I was never “hateful”, at least not consciously. Stupid, quite possibly. Wrong, definitely.
“Jadehawk, do you know if Lambs of Christ are still the powerhouse pro-life group in NoDak?”
To be honest, I don’t quite know, since all those groups sort of blend into each other for me. But they’re Catholics, aren’t they? If so, then it’s very possible that the Orange Catholic Brigade that was standing around the clinic last time I was in Fargo was Lamb of Christ. I didn’t bother reading their T-Shirts that thoroughly.
“I hope I was never “hateful”, at least not consciously.”
Consciously? No, probably not.
“But they’re Catholics, aren’t they?”
Yes, they are Catholics. Their big moment in the spotlight was the sad case of Martina Greywind, a pregnant, homeless Native American woman who was addicted to huffing paint. The Lambs offered her a $12,000 bribe to carry the baby to term, even though it was sure to be seriously fucked up.
I’ve heard about that… it’s so royally fucked up. It’s like an auction for fetuses :-/
9-months of total hormonal clusterfuck
That’s the extreme case, by far, and not a common one… but then, it’s not predictable in advance how a pregnancy will be in this respect, is it.
(Unless my mother hid it very well, she did not even go through the famous nausea, which is supposed to last much less than 9 months anyway. At least not for her last 2 pregnancies; I don’t remember the first 2, for rather obvious reasons. :-) )
I hope that it’s all simply because she’s young.
A few hours ago I finally caught up (somewhere in the early 700s). To me it seems like there are surprisingly many things Skatje doesn’t know about and therefore doesn’t take into consideration, leading to unintentionally sexist and classist conclusions.
There are organizations that give out birth control, at least condoms, for free. Call you local planned parenthood and ask them.
Oh, you can have sex with a guy without risking pregnancy. Oral sex is perfectly fine. Enjoy!
A few hours ago I finally caught up (somewhere in the early 700s). To me it seems like there are surprisingly many things Skatje doesn’t know about and therefore doesn’t take into consideration, leading to unintentionally sexist and classist conclusions.
Based on what badgersdaughter (and Skatje herself) was saying, Skatje used to be pro-choice and is acquainted with the arguments. I’m honestly baffled as to why she holds her current position. She’s a college student, so the cynic in me wants to attribute it to zealous crusaders for a cause (there are plenty of those on campus), whether it’s Jesus or something fuzzy about the sanctity of souls. But then, that’s not really a fair guess.
I wish after I saw this post I didn’t go to the Sunday Sacrilege thread to see what the fuss is about. In a crappy mood now.
Yea the Sunday thread sucked. I just went back to quote her on the used to be pro-choice thing, which she actually stated as a reply to one of my post and say that Al B Quirky posted a VERY stupid comment and no one (including me) noticed. Or everyone decided not to waster their time on him.
*posts and saw. sorry, note to self lack of sleep not good fer de brainnnnn……
He’s a troll, Rachel. Mentally deranged. People ignore him for their own sanity at this point.
I know, I’ve been lurking for awhile so thats what I figured. Not feeding that troll is certainly a good practice since he only made the one post. Most likely because he was ignored. =)Attention seeking twit.
Let me clarify the last part was referring to the troll not you or anyone else from Pharyngula.
martha, thanks, I’m rather aware of these things… this post is… context dependend. but if it makes you feel better, PP gave me a nice Mirena Coil, so I’m as safe as I’m likely to be.
“She’s a college student, so the cynic in me wants to attribute it to zealous crusaders for a cause (there are plenty of those on campus)”
she’s gone vegan recently-ish too (must have happened after the squid-sushi-tasting last year), so I suppose she’s suddenly facing new dilemmas along the lines of “if I don’t even eat fish or chicken, and don’t wear silk, how can I be pro-abortion, when a fetus is a life, too?!”
I’ve ignored Al B. Quirky because his ignorance is just so deep. I wonder if he’s older than 15. Teaching him anything would require writing a screenful or two, and I wanted to catch up at last, so I didn’t bother.
I suppose she’s suddenly facing new dilemmas
That certainly plays a role.
My approach to killing depends on some vague concept of “good reason”. I don’t kill spiders, ants, flies or wasps, and in the rather rare cases when I can get a mosquito out of the room alive and close the window afterwards, that’s what I do; I’ve also stopped mowing down nettles for just standing in the way.
For abortions, that means “legal, accessible, safe, and rare” (“accessible” from Caine, the rest from my homeboy); the (empirically) only way of ever getting to the “rare” part is to prevent situations that produce good reasons, and that is the job of society, as a quick comparison of the USA and Average Western Europe shows.
Skatje seems to think that’s not enough. I think she’s not being realistic.
“Skatje seems to think that’s not enough. I think she’s not being realistic.”
yeeeaaahhh… she hasn’t gotten to the point yet where one realizes that ideology and reality often don’t mix, and that when they collide, reality must take precedence.
Smart and good people usually get past that point eventually; assholes and idiots don’t.
Then there’s hope – judging from her old blog, she’s at least as smart as Walton…
So, David, in your book, if spiders/wasps/bees creep me out and I prefer ones in my immediate proximity dead to alive (well, in my house at least….it would be dickish to go out in the forest or whatever and kill the indigenous insect/arachnid inhabitants) while wanting a good reason, should I learn to like the taste of spiders/wasps/bees? I think I’ve heard you discuss eating meat before :-)
Not to be too negative on the Skatje thing, but I’ve seen smart people get stuck in religious and/or wooish mindtraps. It’s a terrible thing to behold. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Skatje ends up that way, based on how she lashed out at people instead of being willing to even admit that some of the really horrible things she said (sob stories?) demonstrated a lot of privilege that she takes for granted. People like that will tie themselves in knots to not have to admit or recognize privilege.
Hi Jadehawk,
I’ve not been posting or even reading much on Pharyngula, so I mostly missed the Sunday sacrilege thread unpleasantness. Just wanted to say – you did fine, and don’t let the self-righteous Puritans grind you down!
:-p
KG
This conference on sustainable living, while off-topic to this thread, might interest people here. I won’t go to the conference, but the page I link to contains links to lots of reading material.
So, David, in your book, if spiders/wasps/bees creep me out and I prefer ones in my immediate proximity dead to alive [...] while wanting a good reason, should I learn to like the taste of spiders/wasps/bees?
Hmmmm. :^)
Do sticky, splattered corpses really creep you out less than the living animals? :-)
I think I’ve heard you discuss eating meat before :-)
Can’t remember discussing it. I’ve “admitted” to doing it, if that’s what you mean (…while complaining that, for instance, the cafeteria in Paris gave me more than I could possibly need, on fairly many days even more than I was capable of eating).
I wouldn’t be surprised if Skatje ends up that way, based on how she lashed out at people instead of being willing to even admit that some of the really horrible things she said (sob stories?) demonstrated a lot of privilege that she takes for granted. People like that will tie themselves in knots to not have to admit or recognize privilege.
Yes, that’s the strange part of her behavior in that thread. But with continuing exposure to facts on the Internet and likely at home, I think she’ll change. It took me some training, too, to get to the point where I can change my opinions on short notice.
Just wanted to say – you did fine, and don’t let the self-righteous Puritans grind you down!
Seconded.
Do sticky, splattered corpses really creep you out less than the living animals? :-)
I have a cast iron stomach. Sticky entrails don’t inject venom.
And yeah, I was referring to your occasional cafeteria commentary :-).
It took me some training, too, to get to the point where I can change my opinions on short notice.
I never understood this. I mean, I understand that people are that way. But why make the assumption that one’s opinions are unassailable? I mean, I have opinions, but they’re liable to change at the drop of a hat as soon as better evidence is presented.
The Lambs offered her a $12,000 bribe to carry the baby to term, even though it was sure to be seriously fucked up.
Truly awful.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Skatje ends up that way, based on how she lashed out at people instead of being willing to even admit that some of the really horrible things she said (sob stories?) demonstrated a lot of privilege that she takes for granted. People like that will tie themselves in knots to not have to admit or recognize privilege.
Also, she absolutely refused to articulate the reasons behind her position. That was frustrating. Seeing one’s own privilege is not easy, but I hope that Skatje will grow up and realize the world is far more difficult than she thinks. It really is disheartening when someone raised in a rational, loving household ends up on the woo track, but I have hope that this might be a phase. Living knocks a lot out of high-falutin’ ideals.
why make the assumption that one’s opinions are unassailable?
It’s possible to get emotionally attached to one’s opinions; that’s called the argument from consequences.
And then there’s as always the Dunning-Kruger effect: to believe that there’s very good evidence for one’s opinion.
she absolutely refused to articulate the reasons behind her position
As I understand it, she did articulate her one and only reason: killing is to be avoided at pretty much whatever costs.
(Also, by implication, plants are some sort of crystalline outgrowth of the soil, or something.)
I like PZ’s reaction to Skatje’s stance…
As I understand it, she did articulate her one and only reason: killing is to be avoided at pretty much whatever costs.
(Also, by implication, plants are some sort of crystalline outgrowth of the soil, or something.)
This is why I was guessing it was exposure to zealots in college. If veganism was something she independently reasoned herself, she would have come to some sort of acceptable means of ending life (most that I’ve seen rely on “lack of suffering”, accept that plants don’t have nerves, and are thus ok to kill/eat). But if that was her position, she couldn’t in good faith hold that there’s a good reason to not allow aborting fetuses early in development (well, aside from the blatant slut-shaming).
(Also, by implication, plants are some sort of crystalline outgrowth of the soil, or something.)
Quite literally LOL. :P
“Sex is not only one of the few forms of entertainment I can afford, it’s also one of those things that make my life enjoyable, fun, and worth living.”
Damn, anyone would be depressed if they were as shallow and boring as you.
oh yay, I got my very own anonymous troll now, too!
Shallow? Boring? Have you seen the rest of this blog…?
You really must be trolling.
Now I want you to listen to this little f*cker…
http://www.ted.com/talks/james_randi.html
Randi:
When I see your UGLY FACE I understand why you are an atheist
the really SHARP END OF OCCAM’S RAZOR…
they mix SKEPTICISM with ATHEISM…
KABOOM…
______________________
with the atheists:
they start begging when they start dying…
they PAY THE PRICE FOR ATTACKING THE SUPERNATURAL -
with their LIVES…
CRYSTAL NIGHT TONIGHT!
Atheists,
but you have NO ANSWER TO DEATH… therefore you FAIL…
THE DEATH TRAP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-8-Yxdphsg
********
THE REAL QUESTION:
DOES ATHEISM HAVE A FUTURE?
AND THE ANSWER – NO!
visit:
http://www.clubconspiracy.com/forum/f30/does-ath-ism-have-future-no-11202.html#post66570
Shermer – Harris – Myers – Dawkins – Randi VS. NOSTRADAMUS – EINSTEIN – MARKUZE
you’re ANNIHILATED!
Atheists,
Repent and turn to God.
NOSTRADAMUS – EINSTEIN – MARKUZE
♪♫ One of these things is not like the others… ♫♪
Hint: it’s Einstein.
@David
I LOLed.
Jadehawk, you need to post more. I get the distinct impression PZ is going to ban me since I keep pointing out that he’s misrepresenting everyone he disagrees with in the Skatje thread. I mean, I should leave it alone, but if it was Mooney or Ayala doing the dishonest presentation of others’ arguments thing people would be cheering on pointing out the deception. But no, for trying to keep PZ honest I’m getting shit from a couple of the regulars, even though I’ve been nothing but forthcoming and PZ is very obviously and repeatedly misrepresenting both me and Truth Machine. Wouldn’t let that shit fly without comment on the Intersection, so it would be dishonest and cowardly to put up with it from PZ.
And it was just ridiculous when everyone decided to let the argument lie and he carried on the misrepresentation into The Thread. That was just ridiculous…
“Jadehawk, you need to post more.”
lol, working on it. I just had to get a lot of stuff that needed to get done for the work I’m actually being paid for :-p
Paul, I haven’t caught up with that yet, but I can’t imagine you’ll be banned. Truth Machine has taken PZ under machine-gun fire several times, and was only threatened with a ban when a recent thread consisted mostly of him shooting around. That’s a different situation to a week-old thread in its 1000s (or probably 1200s by now).
My 0.02 €: PZ is right that for Skatje it’s all about empathy – and you’re right that Skatje has overlooked a target for empathy, namely the women with unwanted pregnancies.
Is Skatje still participating in the discussion, or has she left?
and was only threatened with a ban
And that was about a year ago.
Turns out Paul was actually threatened with bannination. Turns out, further, that Paul appears to have misunderstood PZ and seen dishonesty where there wasn’t any (Skatje had naïvely overlooked the women, not deliberately ignored them; and PZ didn’t defend this at all)…
But at least the topic seems to be over!
Turns out, further, that Paul appears to have misunderstood PZ and seen dishonesty where there wasn’t any (Skatje had naïvely overlooked the women, not deliberately ignored them; and PZ didn’t defend this at all)…
Pardon? I never mentioned anything deliberate. PZ’s dishonesty was pretending that people were saying things they were not in his responses. It’s actually very offensive.
Almost every post he made was attacking a strawman representation of the discussion.
Somewhat depressing that you didn’t catch what I was objecting to. It’s offensive how PZ seems to have carte blance to strawman, and pointing it out makes one a “troll” that should be banned. I won’t drag it out here.
PZ really did misrepresent Paul’s and TM’s arguments, insisting that they were claiming he agreed with Skatje, or that they wanted him to somehow punish her. that’s stupid.
Ad I don’t buy that Skatje “naively overlooked women”; I mean, sure, at the beginning maybe. But dismissing all the counterarguments with “oh those stoopid sob stories!11!” is not naivete, it’s very clearly deliberately ignoring/dismissing people.
Though, I’m willing to accept that she’s just gotten too invested in the argument to back down and said stupid shit put of frustration. it was still stupid and indefensible shit, and at least a temporary lack of empathy; and PZ ignored that and insisted that Skatje was too full of empathy. That may well be true usually, but it wasn’t in this discussion, and it was a massive slap in the face to the posters in the thread whom she so cavalierly dismissed. Absolutely not cool.
On that note, I really need to say I don’t feel very welcome at Pharyngula anymore. It seems that if PZ cares enough to post in a topic, almost everyone (except you, SC, and Truth Machine, Ich, and a few others) will simply assume good faith on his part and actually be quite mean about people who dare say he’s not arguing in good faith. I’ll miss it, but I don’t think I’ll be able to get this bad taste out of my mouth. I find myself wishing he had just gone all the way and banned me, since he’s already made me feel thoroughly unwelcome for nothing more than requesting a response to what I said instead of what he wants to pretend I said..
“PZ really did misrepresent Paul’s and TM’s arguments, insisting that they were claiming he agreed with Skatje, or that they wanted him to somehow punish her. that’s stupid.”
Indeed. He closed out the thread with a comment saying that he’s fed up with my misrepresentations of him — the fact is that I didn’t represent him at all other than to say he was flailing, with all of his insults of “everyone”, calling them from Planet Stupid, ridiculous strawman charges that we wanted him to ferociously attack his daughter right now, etc. All I asked, after Becca, was to admit that people had a reasonable view of Skatje given what she had written. He acknowledged that Skatje’s view was unempathic towards women, but he never actually answered Becca’s question, which was about *us*. (Becca accepted his answer, failing to realize that it wasn’t an answer to her question). I glanced at the unending thread when Paul provided a link and I saw that Becca said that Paul and I wanted more — yeah, maybe an apology to all the people he trashed, and a statement that maybe we don’t have Skatje wrong after all when we say she lacks empathy (oh, but she cares so much for the animals and the embryos; sorry, but that’s not empathy, it’s more like projection). And in that unending thread, when PZ threatened to ban Paul for no good reason, Caine sycophantically attacked Paul, as did Nerd, who despite 30 years as a scientist I consider a nitwit completely lacking in subtlety or the ability to appreciate it.
The Sunday thread was very sad, with both Myers’s proving to be greatly disappointing (although I must say that I was already well aware of what an intellectually dishonest asshole PZ is capable of being.)
” PZ’s dishonesty was pretending that people were saying things they were not in his responses.”
Over and over he misrepresented us, even claiming we said we were leaving the thread when we didn’t. I don’t think these representations were deliberate, they were because he was angry and reactive and flailing about and just didn’t care whether he got what anyone had said right.
Though, I'm willing to accept that she's just gotten too invested in the argument to back down and said stupid shit put of frustration. it was still stupid and indefensible shit, and at least a temporary lack of empathy; and PZ ignored that and insisted that Skatje was too full of empathy.
Oh yes. He didn't make that anywhere near clear enough. The "sob stories" comment (544 – somehow I've remembered the number) was sickening; Skatje has done what I (ad nauseam) say a scientist shouldn't do – she has fallen in love with a hypothesis. :-/
almost everyone (except you, SC, and Truth Machine, Ich, and a few others) will simply assume good faith on his part
I can't tell about other people, but I always assume good faith of everyone as long as I can somehow interpret it into their actions. (That's probably a big part of why I'm not clinically depressive.) And, yes, sometimes I take that too far, trying to use Hanlon's Razor as a chainsaw and assuming ignorance instead of malice till after Ockham's Razor gets in the way.
sorry, but that's not empathy, it's more like projection
Isn't all empathy projection?
Nerd, who despite 30 years as a scientist I consider a nitwit completely lacking in subtlety or the ability to appreciate it
Yeah, he's annoying. I still don't understand why he got his Molly; it does happen that he makes constructive, interesting comments, but it's very rare.I'll absolutely read the rest of the Sunday thread (so I'll know who to apologize to) and report back here; it's just unlikely that I'll find the time for that today.
Empathy is the ability to accurately model someone's mental states and understand what it is like to be them — this is an evidence-based process. Projection is imposition of one's own mental states onto someone or something else — it's a counter-evidential process. Unless we are radically wrong about the mental states of embryos, empathy for them is not possible. In the case of animals, empathy is at least difficult and we should be leery of our ability to do it. It is notable that we tend to be far more sympathetic to animals that we find attractive and that we don't see as threats. Children bring caterpillars to class and coo over them and watch in fascination as they become adults; maggots, not so much..
I can't tell about other people, but I always assume good faith of everyone as long as I can somehow interpret it into their actions.
That's well and good, and my starting position as well. The problem was people were reading PZ's posts, not reading what he was replying to, and assuming he was being accurate (when he blatantly was not). That was what was so upsetting…
If X says that Y is acting in bad faith, it's obviously a bad idea to assume that X is acting in good faith; one must carefully examine the evidence.
And, yes, sometimes I take that too far, trying to use Hanlon's Razor as a chainsaw and assuming ignorance instead of malice till after Ockham's Razor gets in the way.
Ignorance (or stupidity as stated by Hanlon) vs. malice is a false dichotomy. First, PZ's threats to ban and saying that everyone was from Planet Stupid etc. were malicious and would have been even if they had been based on an accurate judgment. Second, as I said above, I don't think these [mis]representations were deliberate, they were because he was angry and reactive and flailing about and just didn't care whether he got what anyone had said right. That's intellectually dishonest, and intellectual dishonesty is a mechanism for thinking one is doing right when one isn't.
I still don't understand why he got his Molly
Here's the nominating thread: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/12/ready_for_another_molly.php
Jadehawk nominated him "for general awesomeness" so perhaps she can explain it. Patricia said Nerd "deserves a nod for his tard fixing", which is probably what he got it for, but as I said he lacks subtlety, frequently mistaking atheists for theists, attacking philosophically sophisticated positions as stupid or anti-science, etc.
"Jadehawk nominated him "for general awesomeness" so perhaps she can explain it."
I get the impression that he got knee-jerky and repetitive afterwards.
If not, then obviously I made a mistake.
Are you sure you want to put “accurately” into the definition? :-S
==========
When there still were a lot of creationists and other apologists, Nerd’s knee-jerk reactions served a fairly good purpose: while everyone else (myself especially, SIWOTI syndrome) was getting lost in details, he kept repeating his attacks on the basics (where’s the evidence for a god in the first place, where do you get your crazy ideas from — charitable interpretation of “peer-reviewed literature or STFU”). That time is, however, over.
Best I can recommend is that you start scrimping and saving for Essure or Adiana.
Regarding the bullshit from PZ’s youngest, I chose not to join the thread but preferred to state quite simply that I pretty much lost any respect I had wrt her.
Keep in mind she’s not even able to drink legally yet. In my experience as an older undergrad (on the other side of 21), young undergrads who don’t have their marbles totally in place can get really carried away with new causes they’re going after. It seems to be part of college, for a lot of people, that they find some huge cause to fight for that varies in its sanity.
Especially if they’ve never really had to face hardship in their own lives.
(I have, several times; my first handful of semesters of college were marked by depression, which made things so crappy that I had to transfer out, get treated, and start all over again. I’m doing very well now, with a solid grad-school-quality GPA. In addition, my father appears to be slowly losing his mind, my family is financially all over the place at the moment – or at least, that’s what it looks like to me – Mom acts all OH SHIT OUR ACCOUNTS LOOK BAD one moment and OH EVERYTHING’S OKAY the next. I also commute to campus, which is not a hardship, but it’s more for convenience than anything – dorms are hugely distracting and extremely unsupportive.)
By the way, I think veganism is kind of stupid in principle mostly because it neglects that sometimes animals fuck shit up (albeit sometimes it is frequently our fault that they fuck shit up!). Such as deer. They overpopulate a lot of areas of my state and sometimes the best way to deal with it (giving them contraception would only introduce a lot of hormones into the water) is shooting a few of them and eating tasty venison steak. Eating animals (though not farming them or marketing the meat) is a perfectly legitimate way, I think, to keep populations in control – legally and sustainably hunt them yourself and use as much of the animal as possible.
I try to eat ethically-killed food, don’t eat veal or lamb or other juvenile critters, don’t eat foie gras, but I think veganism goes a little too far.
Shit, I think humans are overpopulated too. C’mon, bears, go snack on some drunken frat boys in the forest or some sport-hunting hick who only kills the animal to display its head on a wall.
yup; hunting licenses help control deer populations, get people fed healthy meat, and save on forestry expenses, because someone would have to shoot the critters anyway.
plus, we do need to keep animals. we need to get manure from somewhere, and animals produce that stuff in abundance ;-)
Therefore, I’m also more concerned with reducing the amount of animal products (carbon-footprint, you know), and sourcing the rest from places that don’t torture the animals.
Keep in mind she’s not even able to drink legally yet. In my experience as an older undergrad (on the other side of 21), young undergrads who don’t have their marbles totally in place can get really carried away with new causes they’re going after.
That’s true. At 18, when I started my undergraduate degree, I was a right-wing authoritarian hawkish conservative. Over the last couple of years, I’ve become much more liberal, and turned into a staunch civil libertarian. Education can do that. :-)
you can use the blockquote tag here, btw ;-)
not that it will look much different than just italicizing things, but still:
:-)
OK. I will ensure that I use your sniny new blockquote-capability in every future post. :-)
Are you sure you want to put “accurately” into the definition? :-S
It’s essential to it. E.g., if your model of women wanting the right to an abortion is of people looking for sex without inconvenience, you’re not empathic. Again, it’s evidence-based.
So this is where everyone is…:-)
Maybe I am tending to get depressed because I’m not getting any sex I wonder…But OTOH, I’m not looking for any ! I can see where you’re coming from tho.
As to NoR, I will tell him that he’s annoying on Pharyngula, not here…
The Sunday thread, I skimmed 10 comments and then didnt come back until much later, I can’d stand these kinds of emotion-charged discussions very well, and nothing good ever comes of it.
I should add that before about 20, a lot of my fellow undergrads are still stuck in that identity-forming stage (c.f. Erikson’s stages of psychosocial development ). Some don’t get out of it for a while.
I sit and kind of giggle at all the kids who are all ‘OH HAY FREE TIBET’ who, when I note that Tibet would be a theocracy under the Dalai Lama, spontaneously combust.
Or the ones who are environmentalist who don’t actually know a thing about being green or who do the Earth-Day-style green that Sharon Astyk totally hates. (The woman’s a little nuts, but I give her props for being about as genuinely environmentalist as she can.)
Or the ones who are Blastocyst Liberation Front idiots or ALF idiots or the ones who are so far to either side of the political spectrum that it eclipses everything else about them.
Bear in mind that even we older undergrads still have some growing to do. The frontal lobe doesn’t finish maturing until 25. I’ve become almost painfully aware of some mistakes I’ve made because of this – largely in the form of a car accident or two and a few social fuckups.
A large part of what, I think, separates the sane undergrads from the insane undergrads is metacognition and the ability to take a step back for a moment and have the gonads to say ‘Self, that was a really silly thing to do. Next time, you need to do (better alternative)’ without injuring one’s own sense of self-worth and intrinsic sense that one is okay. Which is part of maturity.
I meant to ask Skatje what her rationale was, and kept getting sucked into other comments.
Re depression, one usually reliable help is getting out for walks–about as good as taking anti-depressants, and free.
I haven’t been able to frequent Pharyngula for the past several weeks (at least, as much as I used to), and hence have no idea about what you all are talking about (re: the Sunday thread). From this blog and somewhere else (can’t exactly remember where) I did glean that something was amiss. It brought an interesting parallel to my mind: was PZ’s defending Skatje at Pharyngula akin to Richard Dawkins’ defending Josh Timonen during that brouhaha at his site? Perhaps – in PZ’s case – affection towards the offspring transcends all rationality and logic?
Hmmm… I wish I could find that thread to read about the kerfuffle that clearly left many of the regulars dissatisfied.
KD, if you’re interested in reading it, the thread is here. But be warned, it’s incredibly long and it’s painful, emotionally exhausting reading.
I’m slowly getting… “depressed” would be exaggerated, but I do feel lonely, and I don’t like that at all. I don’t see a point in looking for sex per se; once there’s enough love, sex happens all on its own anyway (unless asexuals are involved), doesn’t it? I think casual sex would leave me disappointed about having got that far but still not having a lasting relationship, about being back to square one.
Various Pharyngulites do tend to rub it in, though!
I’ve done so several times in the last years.
Well, it’s evil against evil, as usual.
(At least it’s not evil against evil against evil against evil against evil, like the Iraq war was and, with two fewer evil parties, still is.)
Heh. Seconded.
For me, going for a walk alone is only possible if it’s in a very interesting area that I haven’t recently gone over with a fine-toothed comb. Otherwise it’s so boring I can’t get myself to start.
Consequently, in Paris, my legs started to hurt from lack of movement. At least that’s now over or mostly over.
There’s not much difference between Vienna and Paris tho wrt walking opportunities !
Walks work fine for me btw, I need the time-to-myself to think about stuff.
I didn’t actually live in Paris proper, it was Montrouge… and I spent most of the time sitting in the lab, sitting in the subway, and sleeping… Here, on the other hand, I have a nature reserve/park literally in front of the door.